Hello again,
I am taking a break from the book I’m writing to bring about a new topic that I would love to get as much feedback as I can from all you readers. I know it may be a little inconvenient to “comment”, but I’d like this subject to become something of a forum of sorts. This is a subject that needs to be approached and discussed – especially in the Christian community. I say this because we claim to have the answer for the world, but we are no different from the world when it comes to marriage and divorce. We rate right up there with them, and it ought not be so.
With this post, I am going to bring up two sets of scriptures – one by Paul and one by Peter – about marriage. And the big question here is this: DO WE REALLY BELIEVE WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE? I ask this question because I know that we will first chime out “Of course I believe this! This is the BIBLE! The Word of God!” But if we really believe it, what’s going on?
The first scripture is from Ephesians 5: 22-31
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the savior of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord the church: for we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
The second scripture is from I Peter 3: 1-1-7
Likewise, you wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any do not obey the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; while they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting of the hair, and the wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands: even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord; whose daughters you are, as long as you do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, you husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
OK, so there are the scriptures. I look around and see so many marriages in shambles. Even in the church. Here are two very direct, clear and provocative sets of scriptures. There are more scriptures on this subject, and if you want to name them feel free. But these two pretty much sum up all of them.
What do you say? How is it that our marriages are in such trouble? Why is there such dissension? Why is it that most women are NOT submitting to their husbands, and many men are not honoring their wives or remaining faithful?
The word is clear about what we’re SUPPOSED to do, but I have to wonder if we’re really doing it. Again, I ask . . . What do YOU say?
Good stuff, bro.
I suppose we could go to great lengths to figure this one out. I’ve got a few theories.
#1. I think women don’t submit to their husbands because they don’t respect them as Godly leaders. Few men are TRULY living out their lives behind the private, closed doors of their homes (and bedrooms) as Godly, servant leaders. FEW MEN.
#2. With the horrific spread of pornography, sensual material on TV, movies, etc .. men have an incredibly twisted, distorted view of sex, marriage, and women. No doubt this affects our ability to love our wives as Jesus loved the church.
#3. It’s not all the men’s fault. With all of the “women’s liberation”, women are much more independent … they are in careers, and many are in positions of authority, influence, and position above men. I would imagine it’s hard for a strong woman who has the keys in her hand in the work place to become more submissive at home.
Ultimately, deep down, I have to believe that God put the desire within women to love their husbands, submit to them, and follow them. But this isn’t activated when they aren’t loved and respected first. It’s like the “chicken before the egg” thing.
I’m @ work, and somewhat in a hurry, but maybe this can kick off the discussion.
Fred
By: Fred McKinnon on May 12, 2008
at 2:12 pm
Agree with Fred.
I’d also add that “love” always come back to sacrifice. To choice.
I choose to lay down my life for my wife. I choose to put her first. I choose to love her.
The second I choose something else over her is the second I’m not truly loving her as I should. None of this, I “fell” out of love bull. None of this, it’s just not like it used to be baloney.
Love has never been about feelings. But our world says it is.
I think a woman who sees her man CHOOSE her over all else will respond in ways we can’t imagine sometimes. When we as man love her first, when we lay down our lives for her, then she will submit to our God inspired leadership.
Christ’s love and sacrifice for the Church is the perfect example.
We are able to love because HE first loved us.
By: Russ Hutto on May 12, 2008
at 2:19 pm
I’m just here because Fred said I should be.
I think the root problem has little to do with men, woman and marriage. I think it has more to do with the fact that each of our personal commitments to God may not be where it should be.
Women will follow men who are following God. We just need to get our collective acts together.
Plus there needs to be more open honesty in church. Men need to be accountable to other men.
By: Chad Wright on May 12, 2008
at 2:34 pm
Wow! What a rapid response! Fred, I believe you’re right on the spot. Russ, you’re right in that love ALWAYS is about sacrifice. It’s always putting others before our own selfish needs – even if the needs are legitimate! Chad, glad you’re here – even if it’s just because Fred said you should be.
By: rmckinno1 on May 12, 2008
at 3:09 pm
I believe that one of the greatest struggles we find ourselves in is that people (in general) tend to wait for the “other one” to “live it out” before they will.
Thus, “what do we really believe”? Like Chad said, it’s more about where each individual is “not as committed as they should be”.
But what about that? God didn’t say to act this way towards their spouse if they do it first. And if
the wife keeps waiting to see her husband “lay his life down” for her before she submits . . . and if the husband is waiting for his wife to “submit” before he lays his life down . . .
What’s the outcome?
By: rmckinno1 on May 12, 2008
at 3:16 pm
well, I think it’s pretty simple. We’re seeing the outcome. A huge divorce rate, and lots of unhappiness in marriages.
But why is it so much worse now than it used to be? Are we loving Christ, and thus our wives (and vice versa) worse than we were 50 years ago? Has our culture had a negative impact?
By: Fred McKinnon on May 12, 2008
at 3:26 pm
I think our culture has had a tremendous amount to do with it. We are living in a dog eat dog world, with everyone looking out for himself.
50 years ago people had it much harder, but they respected one another much more, too. The term “neighbor” was actually seen in a biblical sense.
Now, we pull up to the drive-thru and get mad if our order isn’t ready from window one to window two. Then we go to the church – or even God – and want the same quick service, but gripe about the cost.
I still have Russ’ comment ringing in my head . . . It always comes back to sacrifice. And that’s something that we have so little of. And we don’t even want to THINK about sacrificing for somebody until they do it first (for the most part).
Preaching to myself here.
By: rmckinno1 on May 12, 2008
at 4:04 pm
[...] My brother, Robert McKinnon, started an engaging blog discussion on this blog called “Marriage and God’s Word”. He’s asked me to put out the word to my blog friends, and would really love your input. [...]
By: FredMcKinnon.Com » Blog Archive » Tuesday Quick Start on May 13, 2008
at 8:39 am
Well, I know that everyone is a lot busier than the times of the Bible. Now with that being said, I am not making excuses but to me, I have been married for 13 years and it seems to get easier to do your own thing…just easier that way. I mean, I am deeply in love with my husband, I am busy in my career and it is hard to totally submit to him. Would I change this if I could, absolutely! The busy times has everyone in the church doing their own things and you add children, home and work on top of it all and it is almost unbearable.
I agree that if marriages are going to work, it takes sacrifice on both parts not just the wives.
My husband and I have had a great 13 years together but we have also had times when it wasn’t so easy…. we seperated, went through marriage counseling, and ended up back together the day before our divorce was final….that was over 7 years ago……I can honestly say that I am married to the man that I will spend the rest of my life with and yes…. we both make sacrifices in home work and children and sad to say that even sometimes church is sacrificed.
If we all make sacrifices…. it is easier for a woman to submit to her husband. and if love and respect are given to her it is a whole lot easier for her to give it in return….ask my husband I can be nice or mean…….depends on how he treats me. Thank God I have a man that loves me for me!
By: Melanie Burney on May 13, 2008
at 10:49 am
Culture does have a tremendous amount to do with it. Honestly I think sex has a lot to do with it. It is now culturally acceptable to have sex with just about anyone you want. Then get married only if you want to.
This reduces the commitment people are willing to make with marriage. If you can sleep with anyone you want with little-to-no commitment, what’s the point of marriage? That’s the attitude a lot of people take.
And like it or not, that’s the attitude many Christians take too. We’re just as susceptible to temptations like that as anyone else.
It wasn’t that way 50 years ago. I think we’re seeing the effects of so many years of having (for lack of a better term) a hyper-sexual culture.
By: Chad Wright on May 13, 2008
at 11:05 am
I agree that the culture is become more “sexually oriented” – it’s obviously everywhere you look. I don’t necessarily agree that the people are. The cravings for human contact have been around since Adam & Eve, and in years passed maybe it was because divorces were so looked down upon that even through terrible marriages and infidelity couples stuck together.
Personally – I think that marriages are lacking in respect. I hear so many couples airing out their dirty laundry all over town, church, the web, etc. They have no respect for the other person’s privacy or feelings. I would never dream of sharing with another an argument or any negative feelings between my husband and I – I have nothing but positive things to say in public about my husband, and the same goes for him. We work out anything that may come up together. Alone. In private. We have great respect for our relationship and want to always be sensitive to each other. Our marriage thrives because we #1 – love God and each other, #2 – are honest with each other, and #3 – respect our relationship and each other.
Couples have to stop viewing each other as the enemy, and start trusting each other as their helper.
That’s just my female take on the issue!
By: Leslie Brooke on May 13, 2008
at 12:05 pm
WOW, son! You’ve opened up a real can of worms! But it’s a can of worms that should be opened up.
As you know,next month your Mom and I will have been married for forty-seven years. Needless to say, we’ve been through a lot – even to the point of divorce many years ago (before we were both saved and filled with the Holy Spirit). However, our marriage today is stronger and more vibrant than ever before.
As a pastor and marriage counselor, certified through Life Innovations, Inc., I have opportunity to counsel many couples who are believers. There are several things I’ll mention here briefly that are vital to our understanding if we are to portray marriages to the world that are different than the world’s view.
First, I tell Christian couples that there is no such thing as “marriage problems”; rather, there are individual HEART problems. Marriage was God’s idea, not man’s. And man must agree with God’s plan, submitting to Jesus Christ as Lord of their lives, if they expect His plan to produce life and abundance in relationships.
The next step is to explain the divine revelation we have received concerning SUCCESSFUL relationships. Basically, in order to have A SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP there absolutely must be EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION. Then finally, EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION depends upon an understanding and identification of ROLES.
The husband and wife role in a marriage relationship is only ONE role in the relationship. There are many other roles (man, woman, father, mother, brothers/sisters in the Lord, NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST, etc. etc.). At each of these role levels, the only one that has a “vertical” role is the one of husband over wife. All the other roles are “horizontal” in the relationship.
Consequently, if the husband is submitted to Jesus Christ as Lord of his life, what godly wife wouldn’t want to submit to that? And how does that “look”? Jesus gave His life for the church.
“Can two walk together unless they are agreed?” (Amos 3:3). The implied answer is, “NO!” Therefore, the agreement of both parties in the relationship must be first with the principles and commandments of the Lord. As such, agreement according to His will for the relationship will occur, and the results will be life, joy and peace. The world needs to see this type of relationship between husband and wife.
I know, I’ve written far too much. And I’ve just gotten started. Must stop now and get to other things.
By: Dad on May 14, 2008
at 10:00 am
While I agree that culture plays a part in how we act and what we accept as normal, I think the root of the problem is found not in what we see around us but in what do as the body of Christ.
First, we accept it as normal. When was the last time you heard of an adulterer (according to scripture anyone who divorces their spouse is one) being take through the steps of church discipline. Step 1) A friend approaches them about the problem. If there is no repentance step 2) The friend and a Christian authority or two confront the sinner. If there is still no change Step 3) It is brought before the church and the person is “handed over to Satan” so they can see their sin for what it is and understand that the bride of Christ should be presented “to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
How cool would it have been if a close personal Christian friend had been able to approach Melanie in a loving Christ-like manor and say “I see some red flags. Can we talk?” and a Godly Christian man had worked with her husband and with the Spirits guidance got them back on the right track. But the body of Christ has been rendered ineffective because we have become spectators in a culture that demands tolerance over righteousness and the “church” in general has largely ignored the practice of discipline because we are supposed to “Love” one another.
I put love in quotes because is it really love when we allow brothers or sisters to live contrary to the standards they themselves claim to follow.
Please understand, I am not talking about hardline justice without mercy. As the bride/body of Christ, love and mercy must always be there but not without justice. That’s how we have hope. Hope that no mater how we stumble there is always someone to help us get back up, dress our wounds and set us back on the right track.
Second, I fully believe that men hold the primary responsibility for setting the example of Love in the family. I believe the base unit of the church is the family and I believe scripture backs this up. I believe the base unit of the family is the couple (Husband and Wife) not the individuals (husband ,wife, children.) Scripture says “the two shall become one flesh.” Individually, we have different roles. Just like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one but have different roles the Husband and Wife are one with different roles. In todays equality minded society this gets miss-interpreted and society redefined submission to be some sick, twisted sexual preference. But the reality is that if a man truly loves his wife with his life then no woman would have a problem with submitting to his authority as the head of their body because she could see that he is seeking the best for them as a unit not just his own individual needs.
I haven’t arrived yet! I’m still working on this daily. So your prayers would be greatly appreciated.
By: P. Scott on May 14, 2008
at 11:32 am
Melanie: Could you elaborate more on what you meant when you said that “it is hard to totally submit to him”? I believe we (as the church) may have a totally wrong concept of what submitting looks like. Maybe we’re seeing it wrong and putting efforts into the wrong thing?
Also, I totally agree that it is easier for a woman to submit to a man who loves her and respects her. Like Peter says, the husband is supposed to give HONOR to the wife!
And what does THAT look like?
I’m so glad that a lady has dropped into the conversation!
By: rmckinno1 on May 14, 2008
at 12:45 pm
P. Scott has really hit a home run with his post. Until the church recovers the “order” it has lost, we’re just spinning our wheels. Christ has got to be the Standard of each of our lives individually, and the church corporately. When this restoration occurs, things will definitely look different.
From Robert:
They definitely will, dad. Could it be that we “know” the order, but simply choose not to walk it out? Many I talk to seem to know what the right thing is to do, but they aren’t doing it.
By: Dad on May 14, 2008
at 1:26 pm
Chad:
I know you’re right when you say that the culture has become “sex driven”. All one has to do is turn the TV on and you see it in the commercials, the programs and on nearly all the highway billboards. PG movies are what rated R used to be many times.
Schools pass out birth control and actually teach how to “safely have sex” before marriage. Marriage in the world’s eyes now include homosexuality as equal.
Mark Rutland once said “God created sex. And He was in a nifty mood when He did it!” But the enemy has twisted it tremendously.
Leslie’s comment really ties in with this.
By: rmckinno1 on May 14, 2008
at 2:05 pm
Leslie:
Another lady in the house! Welcome and thank you!
You said that respect is lacking in marriages, and I totally agree. Airing out your dirty laundry with your spouse in public is not “submitting” to the husband. Nor is it “honoring” the wife. It is total lack of respect.
The scripture says to “keep the marriage bed holy”. I don’t think that’s just talking about sex. I think it’s talking about intimacy – which includes relationship in and out of the sack.
Respect branches out to what Chad was saying, too. With culture being so sex-driven, it has a total lack of respect – especially to women. Women have been degraded to such an extent by the pornography industry that they are portrayed as nothing more than slaves to be abused.
Loving God . . . if we do that, then our marriages will look like it, huh?
Being honest with each other . . . that’s a hard one. Many people I’ve talked to are honestly AFRAID to be honest with their spouse. They are afraid of the results. (Could be because “respect” and loving God aren’t in the forefront?)
Respecting each other . . . how true that we need to rely on one another.
I think spouses should be BEST FRIENDS.
By: rmckinno1 on May 14, 2008
at 2:12 pm
Personally, I think the “culture” excuse is valid to an extent but not as huge a part as we would like to make it.
Every major civilization has had some element of hyper-sexuality. Some people believe that the days are darker now than they were during the time of Jesus. I can see how some would see that, but I personally don’t think there’s a huge difference.
It’s not the culture’s fault I CHOOSE porn over intimate relationship with my wife. It’s not the culture’s fault I CHOOSE to work longer than I spend with my family. It’s not the culture’s fault that I CHOOSE to watch t.v. or play video games more than I date my wife. It’s not the culture’s fault that I CHOOSE to let my eyes and thoughts wander and wonder away from my wife.
It’s MY FAULT.
I’m not saying that culture doesn’t make some of these things easy. It does. But it still comes down to my choices.
Do I CHOOSE to lay down my desires (bad or good) to fulfill hers first?
P.S. I added you, Robert, to my blogroll if yo’d like to trade links.
By: Russ Hutto on May 14, 2008
at 3:40 pm
Right on, Russ!
I think there are cases in scripture that show it can get even worse than what we see in our culture today. First one that comes to mind is the flood. Things got sooo bad that God repented for having made man and could only find one man and his emendate family worthy of saving. And then there was Sodom and Gomorra. Same story, only one family was saved! Thank God, we are not alone. There is still enough salt to hold off His wrath.
God has definitely given us a will to choose and we must choose the best path at every crossroad (choice/Temptation/test/ trial) that comes before us.
Can you imagine ladies a place where not only adultery was common but having other people in bed with you and your spouse is the expected norm. That was Sodom.
Granted there are people and groups in our culture today who practice this but my point in bringing this up is that we aren’t too far gone. If we follow Christ’s example and live like Christians (“little Christs”) we can still have an impact on our community and culture at large. But we must LOVE with our life.
By: P. Scott on May 14, 2008
at 4:48 pm
Dad:
I remember the rough times, and you and mom are truly a great example of how things can be. I also remember that you weren’t a christian at that time. But one thing you had was COMMITMENT!
Even though you weren’t walking with God at that time in your life, you realized that you had commited yourself to this woman and family. And you stuck around when many men in this day and time would have thrown in the towel and left to fulfill their own agendas.
I wish that kind of commitment was around today.
I’ve heard the model for relationships so many times. The thing I’ve learned is how ignorant many people are about what “roles” are. Many will have a “knowledge” about what they are, but have no clue what they LOOK like!
Another thing to point out is what makes communication effective? We’ve got to understand that what a woman calls communication is many times what a man calls something else, and vice versa.
Things look one way for a man, and a totally different way for a woman.
I think that a new category should be added:
To have a SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP, there must be AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN, WITH AN EQUILATERAL RESPECT FOR THEIR TWO UNIQUE WAYS OF SEEING THINGS.
Whatcha think?
By: rmckinno1 on May 14, 2008
at 5:29 pm
Seems to me, so much of the church world has ‘lost their first Love’ – that being Jesus so it naturally follows that marriage and family have taken a downward trend.
Too many seem to have entered into a ‘contract’ of marriage rather than a ‘covenant’ of marriage. The attitude seems to be ‘try it you’ll like it and if not, then bail!!
We’ve just celebrated our 55th wedding anniversary on May 9th and are looking forward to as many more as the good LORD may grant us!! We’ve worked through our problems through communicating; both in actions and words including lots of prayers. God used our five, now adult, children to teach us both a lot of lessons. Submission is NOT being a doormat but letting my thoughts and feelings be known and then trusting that final decisions made by my husband are done in accordance to Ephesians 5:25; knowing that he truly loves and respects me!
What we all really need is a ’servant’s heart’ towards our spouse as well as towards others.
Have we arrived?? No, but as time passes – and believe me, it has passed so very fast! – we both grow in our love and respect for one another. We are ‘best’ friends as well as wife and husband.
May all of you be as blessed as I/we have been!!
By: Barbara McCrorey on May 14, 2008
at 5:30 pm
Dad,
One more thing to submit for your wisdom . . .
“Agreement” . . . sometimes a very difficult thing to achieve, huh? What if a man or woman wants to buy a new car, and the spouse is not in agreement?
What if the two aren’t in agreement with how to discipline the children? Do you not discipline? If the wife believes in spanking and the husband doesn’t, then does she refrain from doing it because the husband doesn’t agree? What if it’s reversed, and the husband wants to spank and the wife doesn’t?
This could go on and on, but what do all of you think about agreement – as it pertains to this subject – and marriage?
By: rmckinno1 on May 14, 2008
at 5:32 pm
Phillip:
Thanks for joining in, man!
“Please understand, I am not talking about hardline justice without mercy. As the bride/body of Christ, love and mercy must always be there but not without justice. That’s how we have hope. Hope that no mater how we stumble there is always someone to help us get back up, dress our wounds and set us back on the right track.”
I cut and pasted this quote from your comment because it bears reading again! Truth without mercy will certainly cause harm. Justice without mercy is a murderer!
I mentioned earlier that many men I have talked to want to be honest with their wives about stuff, but they don’t feel like they CAN.
A man is struggling with pornography and wants to quit. He needs his wife to help him, but he’s afraid because he really believes she would hate him if she found out. He’s afraid of her dealing out justice without mercy.
Too true brother. And good stuff about the family unit, too!
By: rmckinno1 on May 14, 2008
at 5:43 pm
Rob,
I hope I’m not being redundant because I have not read the other posts, but here is my take on the subject. I feel like people make similar mistakes about marriage as they do when they make a “commitment” to Christ. Many people walk the isle of marriage thinking that everything is going to be white picket fences surrounding a beautiful house, obeying children, a perfectly trained dog, and a partner that is going to fulfill their every desire to make them live happily ever after. Many people also walk the isle of the church thinking that everything is going to be rosey, money will roll in, their health will increase, AND they can continue on with their current lifestyles without missing a beat while avoiding the gates of hell in the end.
I believe that marriage takes work. The work doesn’t make the marriage because the faithfulness of the married is what makes it official, but the work makes it meaningful and lasting. Faith without works is dead, so I guess you could translate that to say marriage without work equals misery/divorce.
Faith takes work. Jesus laid His life down for us all. He has ultimately done all the work that could be done for us, but because He has shown us how we should live our lives, we know that we must give up our lives in order to truly follow Him. That means put down the sinful habits, repent, and take up our cross and follow Him. When your wealthy or poor, healthy or sick, or on a spiritual high or low, you should continue running the race of faith. That includes loving our wives unconditionally because He has commanded us to do so in his Holy Word. For better AND for worse.
I think that is where people go wrong. They only expect the BETTER and bale out when things get WORSE. Just think what would have happened if Christ took this approach.
Scott
By: Scott Bruckmair on May 14, 2008
at 9:16 pm
Robert: Not ignoring your question re: the principle of agreement. I’ve got some pretty solid revelation of this principle, but neither time nor space are available right now for me to go into it. Maybe we can chat face-to-face over this when we get back from vacation.
By: Dad on May 16, 2008
at 9:58 am
Hello Rob, Quite the subject you got going here.
My input would be that it has to do with all of the aforementioned points.
In my marriage, there was poor communication by both parties, issues of distorted views of sex in the marriage, distorted views of marriage, raising children, discipline of children, ect, ect… The point being that there are several reasons for the failure of marriages within the Church.
Speaking of myself, my concept, idea and definition of Love was total different of what God’s design is, and that Love is what is needed to be laid as the proper foundation in a marriage.
A lot of people don’t have the proper role models to fallow, or have been shown or mentored into what marriage is about. To many are thinking of the “dream” not the reality.
Some of this is due to the pornography, TV, videos, ect, ect…
We are to be in the world, but not of the world. I think if we fallowed the “KISS” principle (Keep It Simple Silly) we would be a lot better off. That is a hard one to do in and with today society.
What, then is the answer? Realise our errors, repent, truly repent, fall into our Fathers arms and move forward with His mercy, grace and guidance.
That is some of my veiw piont.
Blessings Bro,
and Blessings to all others who have blogged on too.
In Christ… Aaron
By: Aaron on May 16, 2008
at 10:02 pm
Russ,
You’re right. There has always been a cultural problem when it comes to living life God’s way. We can look at what we call an “uncivilized” way of life today and it pales in comparison to some of the cultural things that went on in the past.
You’ve taken it to a base level – CHOICE. (What was called “the UUUUUGLY “C” word” at a previous church I attended).
We can’t blame things too much on anything other than our own selfishness and pride. On the day of judgement we will have to answer only for ourselves.
What are we going to say?
Oh, I added you on the blogroll, too. Thanks! I look forward to hearing more from you!
By: rmckinno1 on May 19, 2008
at 12:14 pm
Phillip,
Amen, brother! Living like Christ is the answer to every single problem we have and face today. And LOVING is the key. Christ LOVED, therefore He DIED.
We are supposed to have an attitude of “He must increase and I must decrease”. Where is it, though?
By: rmckinno1 on May 19, 2008
at 12:17 pm
thks for the vibrant discussion.
first, we have assumed that we are married to the right partner, isn’t there anyway to ensure that before we marry; it is indeed God’s will? the man is absolutely sure his fiance is God’s will for him.
how to make a marriage work? i think, unfortunately, the wife usually makes the decision; and the husband decides in that direction; eg adam n eve.
the wife sets the agenda through her expecations n the husband just have to slog to please her.
sad.
By: tj on May 19, 2008
at 2:23 pm
Barbara,
Welcome to the converstation, and congratulations on 55 years! What a testimony!
Leaving our first love . . . I guess that could sum up all of our problems, huh? Marriage, life in general, relationships, work ethics. All of it.
Good call.
By: rmckinno1 on May 20, 2008
at 10:34 am
Scott,
Right on, brother! It seems that people don’t want to WORK anymore. Especially when it comes to marriage.
I think that we have a “McDonald’s mentality” when it comes to life. We want what we want right now with almost nothing more than a command from yours truly.
Marriage takes WORK. And work it is. Laying down one’s life takes a lot from you. We aren’t used to doing it, and it won’t come easy. But Christ never promised us “easy”. As a matter of fact, He promised just the opposite!
Faith without works is dead. Marriage without BOTH partners working is just as doomed.
By: rmckinno1 on May 20, 2008
at 10:38 am
Dad,
I wouldn’t mind sitting down face to face. But I would just as much like to see what revelation you’ve got here, too. If it’s something that will help marriages, then let’s do it.
Maybe we can even start a new subject on the matter.
I think it’s about time for you to start your own blog anyway, pops!
By: rmckinno1 on May 20, 2008
at 10:40 am
Aaron,
Thanks for joining in! And I think that’s Keep It Simple STUPID!
I know I fall into that category alot.
By: rmckinno1 on May 20, 2008
at 10:46 am
TJ
I, personally, don’t believe in “dating” as the world sees it. I don’t believe it has a place in the kingdom of God. Notice that I said AS THE WORLD SEES IT. And I also note that this is only my own conviction – though I believe it is right and irrefutable (and welcome any comments on that statement).
As far as the woman deciding, I don’t think I can go there. I think the woman has a great deal to do with it, but I won’t put all the blame on her. I have to say it is 50-50 as a whole. If it was always up to her, then we’re in more trouble than I think we’re already in.
There has got to be a place where men take responsibility for their own actions. I think it is true that many, many men “slog” to please their wives. And that is the place where the man is at fault.
Men don’t have a backbone anymore. Women, for the most part, WANT their man to take control and lead them. But the world has conditioned them to “be in control”. Men need to step up to the plate and take the brunt of the intitial resistance that many women will give when they take up the leadership mantle of being the head of the wife.
More on that later.
By: rmckinno1 on May 20, 2008
at 12:13 pm
Here’s my take on what’s been said so far:
1) The ladies in this discussion have said that they truly desire the man to lead. They WANT to submit to their husbands . . . .
BUT THEY FIND IT EASIER WHEN THEIR
HUSBANDS ARE LAYING DOWN THEIR LIVES
FOR THEM AND TRULY CARE FOR THEM.
2) Men realize that they must LOVE their wives more than themselves. It’s not ignorance. We know what is required of us.
3) The issue isn’t “marriage problems”, but individual heart problems – mainly one’s personal commitment (man AND woman) to the Lord Jesus being THEIR head, and their submission to His lordship.
4) Sacrifice on both parts is crucial to the survival of a relationship – requiring a tremendous amount of work on both sides to love the other above themselves. This is the Love that Jesus taught and showed the world.
And finally . . . . I THINK that it has a great deal to do with the fact that one spouse is waiting for the other spouse to “perform” according to what they individually think submitting and loving is. And until the other “performs” according to their pre-conceived ideas, they refuse to do anything themselves.
I know that this goes back to individual heart conditions. And I think the root problem is just that. It can’t go any deeper.
When we stand before Christ on that day and have to give an account of the success/failure of our marriage (and I believe we will have to do just that), we will not be able to pull the Adam stunt and say “this woman that you gave me”, nor will we be able to say “the serpent deceived me”. We will be held accountable BY THE LORD for our own actions, and nothing else.
So, as for me, I choose to love my wife. I WILL love my wife whether she reciprocates or not, because this is what I am required to do BY GOD for her.
Not only this, but I want to know what SHE NEEDS THIS LOVE TO LOOK LIKE! What it looks like to a man could be “alien” to the woman. A loving husband should strive to meet the basic needs of his wife according to what her needs are! And vice versa.
I’m looking forward to Barbara’s 55 years in my own life. Sandy and I are striving to know one another better, and get to know one another. We’ve been married 15 years, and want to be married in another 50!
This is what it’s going to take.
Do you agree?
By: rmckinno1 on May 20, 2008
at 12:26 pm
I truly agree with the aspect of examining yourself. We, as a couple, are so wrapped up in pointing the finger at the other spouse that nothing gets resolved. Simply because of the resistance to understand that the problem is usually you!! When we do not have open minds in relationships we tend to be very selfish in expecting our own needs/desires to be met before we will reciprocate. God has definetely shown me myself SO CLEARLY. People has mistaken JESUS/HOLY Spirit as this calm, quiet spoken spirit. However, HE had to almost scream to get my attention. It was overwhelming. I am just learning to change me and through doing this, my environment, atmosphere and family has followed. They have considered me blessed and are able to see my light shine. Realizing that I will not submit to the enemies simple, mundane and conniving ways of bringing constant dissension into my home. HE WILL NOT WIN. GOD honors my marriage and he will finish the good work that he started in my marriage. We have been together 15 years and I plan to go all the way.
GOD BLESS
By: LaRita Rhodes on May 27, 2008
at 9:12 pm
LaRita,
Thanks for stopping by! What you say is so true, and I believe a critical point to consider. We must do what we must do according to what God has said for us. On the day of judgement, we won’t be able to blame our spouse for what WE didn’t or did do.
LaRita is my next door neighbor, and good friend!
By: rmckinno1 on May 28, 2008
at 9:26 am
So I’m way late on this post thanks to the random blog button but:
There is SO much that goes into this!
I agree that many women do not submit to their husbands because their husbands aren’t a good role model. But I think before that it started as the women were just little girls. How did they respect their fathers? Also many things go into divorce rates but the generation before my mother’s there were very few divorces…along comes the women’s liberation and women getting jobs. With jobs slowly brings the idea that women can get out from underneath an oppressive situation and can live “better” by themselves or with another man. I think the idea that a woman doesn’t respect her husband because she wasn’t taught to respect her father and the fact that divorces are so easy to get these days can sometimes lead to marriage problems…
On the man side of things…as a woman you don’t want to admit that your husband might have cheated on you with porn or another woman so possibly men aren’t held accountable. Okay so back to work! thanks for your blog!
By: kimist on July 16, 2008
at 2:03 pm
Thanks so much for another perspective on this subject! I hope you hang around and check out some more stuff and leave further comments!
It’s always nice to “hear” a new face!
By: rmckinno1 on July 16, 2008
at 2:43 pm
Wow, Rob…
I had to see what the 39 comments were. Having “been there, done that” my comments are going to repeat much of what is here. God put in woman a desire to be submitted to her man and also a desire to complete him. A good portion of the male species doesn’t seem to believe that they need this “completion” that God offers through a spouse. Furthermore, we are living in a disposable society. Everything from razors to electronics now are designed to be replaced instead of fixed. Gone are the days of our fathers and mothers (or grandparents) who had to fix, hem, mend, or repair what they had because they couldn’t afford to replace valuable items. Marriage today unforturnately is treated as another disposable item…not valuable enough to fix if in a state of disrepair. It’s easier to go out and get a new partner. Problem is in both cases (electronics and marriages)–we end up with non-degradable junk in a trash heap somewhere. And in those families where the original unit has been trashed, only God’s grace can rebuild and repair the lives involved.
By: Audra on October 24, 2008
at 8:36 pm
Audra,
Excellent analogy. And too true. We are looking for the same thing, us men and women. We just don’t know what we’re looking for NOR what it looks like when we find it!
The same way in the world, huh? The world is looking for Christ, but where can they find Him? Certainly not in much of what we call the “church” today, and certainly not in most “christian” marriages.
The answer? You already said it : “only God’s grace can rebuild and repair the lives involved.
By: rmckinno1 on October 30, 2008
at 2:29 pm